Late Windsors- which is best for transplant?

[boofhead]

Is this the 'Fast and Furious' forum

---

Unfortunately I am 'Slow and Forlorn' .

[hybrid]

[shaun071]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

For the record I'm not a fan of any of the footballs. Give me fast cars, German Aeroplanes and women with big...personalities any day!!!

Hybrid: I'd be interested in the AOD yoke if you can overcome the posting issue.

[hybrid]

Ok, I will speak to the old man.. pretty sure it's at his place.

[shaun071]

Ok, I will speak to the old man.. pretty sure it's at his place.

Thanks

[donoauto]

+ 1 No interest here either. Thugs play the game.

Rugby League - Gentlemens game played by thugs.
Rugby Union - Thugs game played by Gentlemen

[shaun071]

I can't get away from Union, the wife's a Kiwi!!!

Back on topic- are there any advantages in doing the "backyard Boss" conversion on the late 302W using Cleveland heads? The reason I ask is I have a set of 302C 2V closed chamber heads. I had them rebuilt with bronze guides, 2V intake and 4V exhaust valves and hardened valve seats, gasket faces machined flat etc. I know there are better aftermarket heads available that are direct bolt on but I'd be up for $1500+. My thoughts were if I'm already having to get a carb intake, special headers for gt40p heads and already have good 302C heads why not do the backyard Boss for something a little different.
Any thoughts or experiences with this conversion would be appreciated.

[boofhead]

Its a good swap for sure. Given you have them then indeed use them and enjoy. Only really need to consider Cam lift (as you do with any engine) though your 302 Windsor reliefs are not functional in this case which maybe an issue, you will have a 1.72:1 ratio rocker so most Windsor Cam's will result in higher lift than documented, check push rod length (as you do any way) and you will need a special intake manifold for this purpose. They are available just limited choices. Just double check steam holes and water passages to block and the manifold (though should not be an issue). In summary if you did not have the heads then no point as the upper after market heads are generally better though since you have them I would use them for sure.

Edit:

Decided to have a look around as it is far less common a swap these days.

So here is some extra info for you;

Head mod: http://www.darkhorseracing.net/clevor_head_mod.htm

Pistons are hard to find for the 302 block. This might be a real issue (if you Cam has any lift at all) as a custom set would be $800 + .

Full build article - gold standard for your information.

http://302clevor.blogspot.com.au/2012/1 ... levor.html

Note: After searching for parts with the difficulties finding bits and re-familiarising myself with the flow numbers for the heads, I am now leaning toward selling the Heads you have and purchase a set of good after market heads. Having said that being different is worth it so do not let me put you off from your plans.

[shaun071]

Thanks for the info. The engine side of things is really at the planing stage at the moment. I've even looked at using the 351C the heads are fitted to. The backyard Boss has always been an engine I've wanted to build mainly because its a rare thing these days and it is different. I'm new to the Windsor engines as most of my Ford V8 experience has been with Clevelands. So expect all sorts of strange questions like this one! I'll keep doing research into part availability etc but if it looks too expensive or too hard to get the parts needed I'll give it a miss and stick with GT40P's or aftermarket gear. A big reason for me buying a Mustang in the first place was parts availability is so much better than for the XB coupe project I have.

[boofhead]

Here is a specialist Clevor supplier.

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/1819.htm

Here are the pistons for a 302. I have found multiple sources for 351 Windsor Clevor pistons while 302 were more difficult. Glad I have found some now.

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/2013.htm

I like that fact there is a set for building a 347 version (which is what I would consider doing) as well as the 302 pistons.

Intake manifold options

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/1851.htm

All the hard to get parts are at one place. So this is a potential goer. I am happy to help with the engine build if you need assistance.


Edit: Edelbrock had once done a top end clevor kit for the 302 Windsor. I am not sure it is available now though the parts numbers for all the parts are published. Kits was part #2059 and parts;

Kit Part #, Intake Manifold, Cylinder Heads, Cams & Lifters, Timing Chain, Head Bolt Kit, Intake Bolt Kit, Gasket Sets

#2059 #7129 #61695 #2221 #7820 #8562 #8529 #7377

See: http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/ ... kits.shtml

So you could possibly find some of the parts needed from this list.

Here is an online shop for the kit.

http://kvsml.xjebl.servertrust.com/Prod ... tCode=2059

Hope this helps

[jas24zzk]

Rugby League - Gentlemens game played by thugs.
Rugby Union - Thugs game played by Gentlemen

And you wonder why we regard it as the same game and call it thugby or mugby

[shaun071]

Here is a specialist Clevor supplier.

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/1819.htm

Here are the pistons for a 302. I have found multiple sources for 351 Windsor Clevor pistons while 302 were more difficult. Glad I have found some now.

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/2013.htm

I like that fact there is a set for building a 347 version (which is what I would consider doing) as well as the 302 pistons.

Intake manifold options

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/1851.htm

All the hard to get parts are at one place. So this is a potential goer. I am happy to help with the engine build if you need assistance.


Edit: Edelbrock had once done a top end clevor kit for the 302 Windsor. I am not sure it is available now though the parts numbers for all the parts are published. Kits was part #2059 and parts;

Kit Part #, Intake Manifold, Cylinder Heads, Cams & Lifters, Timing Chain, Head Bolt Kit, Intake Bolt Kit, Gasket Sets

#2059 #7129 #61695 #2221 #7820 #8562 #8529 #7377

See: http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/ ... kits.shtml

So you could possibly find some of the parts needed from this list.

Here is an online shop for the kit.

http://kvsml.xjebl.servertrust.com/Prod ... tCode=2059

Hope this helps

Thanks for the links, some really helpful info there. The more I look into it the more I like the idea. summit sell the edelbrock manifolds too.
On the subject of pistons, some clevor builders ( and genuine B302 owners) in the states are using a KB brand 351C piston and milling the crown to suit 302W compression height. Usually about .040" needs to be milled off to acheive a zero deck height. The piston has a thick crown as both the flat top and dished top version are the same casting. Anyone have have any experience with milling pistons and an approximate cost?

[boofhead]

This is a viable option. Before common stroker parts were around it was common to use a lath (mill could be used though it would be slower process) to get the compression height you need. You could also consider adding the valve reliefs back in at the same time as well using a mill (though might not be necessary). Cost to machine them down 30 to 40 thou would not be expected to be much for a competent operator. I would do it myself if I had access to the gear. Balance the system after you are finished machining the pistons.

Note: If you did not deck the block (to much) then you would not need to machine off as much from the piston to get a zero deck result.


Note 2: I decided to do a quick check on piston compression heights as the 40 though did not sound quite correct to me. Would be interesting to know your source. In any case, keeping it simple using the stock 3.0" stroke and rod. A standard 302 Windsor piston has a compression height of 1.608 (KB115 piston is an example) while the Clevor KB110 piston has the 351W compression height of 1.774 so the differential is 166 thou not 40. Now you could get away with extra (approximations here) 16 thou exit to the deck and lest say 30 thou above the deck due to gasket thickness (which is pushing it). So this still leaves 120 thou to machine the piston down. The rod length could be changed though the 302 W has the shortest rods in the ford Windsor family. The Boss 302 used 289 rod lengths which does not help you. So I started to look further and for example these ross pistons

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ros-8 ... refilter=1

Have a compression height of 1.668 so this leaves on 60 thou (or less when consider 16 thou deck and possible gasket space. So this is in the acceptable range. Then another idea is to use the DSS piston

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dms-4 ... /make/ford

Which is a true Boss 302 replacement with a compression height of 1.535 which requires 289 length rods for your 302 3 inch stroke.

[Shaunp]

I think I noticed on the Trickflow site they had Clevor stuff.

[boofhead]

Ok further hunting on compression heights. If you use a true 351 Cleveland piston then you are looking at a compression height of 1.670 which leaves 62 thou to deal with. Hence estimated 16 though brings it down to 46 thou so yes this would be fine with a 40 thou removal from the top and gives you zero deck. Phew.... Hope this helps. It is a go.

Note: The advantage of this is that the stock Cleveland pistons are less expensive than the Boss 302 replacements.